Canalblog
Editer l'article Suivre ce blog Administration + Créer mon blog
Publicité
uropi
uropi
  • Uropi is an International Auxiliary language created by Joel Landais. It is a synthesis of all the common points that can be found in Indo-European languages. Its main characteristics are simplicity, internationality and transparency
  • Accueil du blog
  • Créer un blog avec CanalBlog
Publicité
uropi
Derniers commentaires
Newsletter
9 janvier 2008

Novial - Jespersen - Prefixes - Suffixes - Adverbs

 

Uropi Nove 7* Uropi Nove 7* Uropi Nove 7*

******
Provorde de diu - Proverbs of the day - Proverbes du jour

***

Regi konte, keri frame


                           Short reckonings make long friends                  Les bons comptes font les bons amis

Conti pari, amici cari

***

Je ste nit novi ude sol


                           There’s nothing new under the sun                Rien de nouveau sous le soleil

Niente di nuovo sotto il sole

***

Tbelflor

★ ★ ★

    Naturim i avì ʒa oren ov Novial dafòr ; i avì oʒe lisen de miki artikel ov ja in « Précis d’Interlinguistique » pa M. Monnerot Dumaine, ba frankim i konì ne u solen vord in Novial. Trawan mi lingu stude be universitad, i avì os naturim oren ov de gren Dani linguìst Otto Jespersen, ba di s’tal.

   Eke dias for, vaizan su Internet, i findì u Noviali sitia id lisì de artikel « an International Language » (un intranasioni linga) publizen pa Otto Jespersen in 1928 : i vidì mol inpresen.

    In de forvòrd nomen « Need for an Interlanguage » (Nud po un Intralinga), he skriv :

    « Un Amerikan moz vaizo od Boston a San Francisco ane oro maj te un linga. Ba is he doʒev trareno de som apstàd su ni zat Atlanti Oseàni, he avev u talim disemi storij a retalo. Forsetem te he far ap Oslo, id far do sud o sudòst : he ve sim oro mojse Norveji, Swedi, Dani, Doski, Tcekoslovaki, Hungari, Rumani, Bulgari, Turki, Greci id pos, in Egipta, Arabi id u poj Engli – desdù disemi lingas, de majsad od wen se ho kopolem anincepli . Id pur he av ne oren de mijad de lingus voken in Europa. De maldèz Babeli se jok prosàn odia… »

    Di se jok de kaz in 21i suntjàr ; id pur Jespersen, we morì in 1943, konì ne de Europan Uniòn ki ji 27 lande id bemìn 23 disemi lingas, id tale ji probleme tradutadi !  Maj dal he skriv :

    « In siensi kongrese, wim dez Profesor Pfaundler « solem mol poje liente moz partinemo in disvoke, id mole doʒ so satizen is lu incèp de vokade we vid siudim mol spelim daven. Mole vezi kritike vid ne deten par un se ne abli disvoko ov u kest in u straniori linga, id vol ne sia uspozo a vido rubiten, ne par eni anzavad ov de tema in kest, ba par u mank lezidi in uspresad. Tale mimbore kongresis av bemarken te, jakivos de linga uzen in de vokade met, u vezi numar skucoris las de hal ki maj o min rum, po ne vido obvigen skuco u vokad wen lu incèp ne … » »

    Uveda, wa inpresì ma mol se de gren id numari somide intra Novial id Uropi. Da somide vid bespeken be tri nivle : prefikse, sufikse id adverbe.

PREFIKSE

Mole prefikse se de som o se semli in Novial id Uropi :
Po samp de prefikse:

DIS- (we sin apcizad o disspajad) in de N. verbe disdona, dissenda, distrancha = U. disdavo, dissendo, diskoto; (di prefìks esistì ʒa in Esperanto ; po s. disdoni, id un moz prago sio parkà Jespersen garì de Esperanti vorde doni id tranchi (davo & koto) we se poj intranasioni id esìst solem in Franci (donner, trancher)

MIS- (pej, falsim) in N mispronuntia, miskomprena, misdukte, miskalkula = U. misusvoko, misincepo, misduto, misreko

MAL- (koruvok a d’adjetìv mal(i) (= mali) id de advèrb malim : in N. malfamosi = U. malfamos

TRA- (= tra) in N. tralekte = U. traliso

RI- = Uropi RE- sinan redetad : in N. ridona, riskripte = U. redavo, reskrivo

RETRO- = U. RU-  (ruvirten aktad) in N. retrotira, retrodukte = U.  rutrajo, ruduto

MI- = Uropi MIJ : N mihore, milume, miklosat = U. mij hor, mijlùc, mijkluzen

    Begòn, je se anlezi incepo parkà Jespersen av garen de Esperanti Prefìks BO- po de maʒifamìl, we ven od Franci beau, belle (= bel) we vid uzen ki de som sinad. Po na France, di se u poj stupi par un beau-père se ne u bel pater id une belle-mère se ne talvos bel.

SUFIKSE

-ET = U. –IT (digresi sufìks) : N. riverete, urbete, librete, patreto, matreta, dormieta = U. rivit, polit, bibit, patrit, matita, sopito. (Unvos maj Jespersen av slogen Esperanto [suf –eto od Franci -et, ette].  Di sufìks vid poj uzen in Franci, obwan de sufìks –ito, -ita (> U. –it) vid mol uzen in Espani. Idmaj, -et kreàt probleme ki vorde wim sigaret, serviet, biliet, i.s.p)

-ON (agresi sufìks) in N. pluvono, ridono = krati liuv, gren lar. –on vid uzen in Uropi in alten vorde : manon, hason, ʒinona

ADVERBE

Temi adverbe in Novial vid formen ki de sufìks –tem we koruvòk a de Uropi sufìks –vos. Po samp N. nultem, omnitem = U. nevos, talvos

Stu adverbe vid formen ki de sufìks –lok we koruvòk a de Uropi sufìks –ia. Po samp N. nulilok, omnilok, altrilok = U. nekia, talia, altia.

    Ba subetàl, par Noviali adjetive fend ki –i wim mole Uropi adjetive, Novial av mole adverbe fenden ki –im wim in Latini id Uropi (-im id –em).
Po samp partim, privatim, spesialim, naturim se N id U ; N altrim, solim, totim, samim, noktim = U altem, solem, talim, somim, nocim. N. anglim id fransim sin, wim Uropi Englim id Francim, in Engli, in Franci.
N. talim, qualim ? = U sim, kim ? (od Lat sic, Rum cum ?)

    Je ste mole alten semlide intra Novial id Uropi; notem solem adjetive in –i (po s. N mikri = miki), id femu nome in –a, we se mol maj intranasioni te Esperanti –a id -ino; Novial av ne disklinade usim u sort genitivi, wim Uropi id Engli. Idmaj pasìv in Novial vid formen ki de eldivèrb bli = vido, wim in Uropi, Doski, Nizilandi, id Skandinavi lingas.

    Koeglen ki Esperanto, Novial se u veri progrès (wim Neo pa Alfandari po alten motive), ba pur je slog de moda da epoki do maj id maj « naturisma ». Da sin te ji vokabular se nerim solem Latini; mojse ne 100% Latini wim in Interlingua, ba pur mol maj te in Esperanto. Sim Novial se ne u verim intranasioni linga. Ka dam te Jespersen uscepì ne maj intranasioni vorde !  Kim i avev volen kogono ha ! Ba wajim he morì in 1943.

    De moderni tendad in IELe (Intranasioni Eldilingas = IALs in Engli) se uzo Indo-Europan rode. Di s’u bun idea, par lu se intranasioni, da se komùn a mole Europan id Indo-Irani lingas, id Uropi genì od da som rode. Pur de novi IEL kreatore vol stajo feden a de odveni forme da rodis, we esistì, mojse, 5000 o 6000 jare for. Je se pratikim anmozli po eni Europan – usim eke spesialiste – rekono da rode, incepo wa lu sin id findo de moderni Europan vorde odvenan od la. Da odveni rode vid skriven ki mole H id mole W, we sem ʒe barbari a mole Europane: po samp, nun Europan ve incepo pHtêr*, sâwel*, snighws*, gwîwô*, gwous*, ba Neolatini vokore id Germàne ve incepo pater, NeoL. id Skandinave ve incepo sol, Slave ve incepo ʒivo id gov.

    Wan un prob modernizo id slimizo da rode, un or tale « Indo-Europaniste » klajo in kor « Traitad ! Traitad ! ». Da fedenad a de purid Indo-Europan rodis det ma meno ov de « purid de Arian rasi » proklajen pa Naziste. I som men te de sluz po humanad se priʒe micen rase. Parkà ne acepo te da rode av vaizen tra històr, av usvolpen in form id sin po ageno de moderni Europan vorde ? Je sem mo te, in de pold intranasioni lingus, un av falen od un estremi sluz a un alten.  Parkà ne findo u kompromìz, un eglivèz intra històr (forhistòr ?) id geografij, intra de odveni I-E rode id li odiu posgene, intra veti lingas id moderni lingas, intra Sanskriti id Engli, Veti Slavi id Espani, Veti Greci id Swedi ?

    Di se wa Uropi av proben deto.

★ ★ ★

fordeban - copie

★ ★ ★

    Of course I had heard of Novial before ; I had even read the small article written on it in « Précis d’Interlinguistique » pa M. Monnerot Dumaine, but quite frankly, I didn’t know a single word of Novial. During my language studies at the university, I had also heard of the famous Danish Linguist Otto Jespersen of course, but little else.

    A few days ago, surfing on the Net, I came across a Novial webside where I could read the article « an International Language «  published by Jespersen in 1928 ; I was very impressed.

      In his foreword called "Need for an Interlanguage"  he says :
« An American may travel from Boston to San Francisco without hearing more than one language. But if he were to traverse the same distance on this side of the Atlantic, he would have a totally different story to tell. Suppose he started from Oslo and journeyed to the South or South-East: he would then hear perhaps Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, German, Czecho-Slovakian, Hungarian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Turkish, Greek, and then in Egypt Arabic and a little English - twelve different languages, of which the majority would be utterly unintelligible to him. And yet he would not have heard half of the languages spoken in Europe. The curse of Babel is still with us … »

    This is still the case in the 21st century, and yet Jespersen who died in 1943, didn’t know the European Union with its 27 member-countries, with its 23 different languages at least, and all its problems of translation. Further on, he says :

    « In scientific congresses, as Professor Pfaundler says, "only very few can take part in the discussions, and many must be well content if they are able to understand the usually rapidly delivered papers. Many an important criticism is not made because one does not possess the ability to discuss a question in a foreign language, and does not wish to expose oneself to the chance of a rebuff, caused not so much by ignorance of the matter in hand as by want of facility in expression. Every member of a congress has noticed that whenever the language employed in the papers changes, a considerable number of the audience leave with more or less noise, in order to avoid being compelled to listen to a paper which they do not understand »… »

        Besides, what impressed me a lot was the great number of similarities existing between Novial and Uropi. Those similarities can be observed on three levels : prefixes, suffixes and adverbs

PREFIXES
Many prefixes are the same or very similar in Novial and Uropi.
For example the prefixes:

DIS- (meaning separation or dispersion) in the N. verbs disdona, dissenda, distrancha = U. disdavo, dissendo, diskoto (distribute, send in different directions, carve) ; (this prefix already existed in Esperanto, for ex. disdoni, but we may wonder why Jespersen kept the Esperanto words doni and tranchi (give & cut) which are not very international since they can only be found in French (donner, trancher)

MIS- (mis-, wrongly) in N mispronuntia, miskomprena, misdukte, miskalkula = U. misusvoko, misincepo, misduto, misreko (mispronounce, misunderstand, lead astray, miscalculate)…

MAL- (corresponds to the adjective mal(i) (= U mali) = evil, bad and the N & U adverb malim (ill, badly) : in N. malfamosi = U. malfamos = ill-famed.

TRA- (= U TRA) = through, across, in N. tralekte = U. traliso (to read through rapidly)

RI- = Uropi RE- (again, repetition : in N. ridona, riskripte = U. redavo, reskrivo (give again, write again).

RETRO- = U. RU-  (back(wards), inverse action) in N. retrotira, retrodukte = U. rutrajo, ruduto (withdraw /retire, lead back).

MI- = Uropi MIJ (= half) : N mihore, milume, miklosat = U. mij hor, mijlùc, mijkluzen (half-hour, twilight,  half-closed)

    On the other hand, it is difficult to understand why Jespersen has kept the Esperanto prefix BO- for in-laws which comes from the French beau, belle (= beautiful) and is used in French with the same meaning. For us French people, this is a bit ridiculous because un beau-père is not a « beautiful » father and une belle-mère is not always beautiful either.

SUFFIXES

-ET = U. –IT (diminutive suffix) : N. riverete, urbete, librete, patreto, matreta, dormieta = U. rivit, polit, bibit, patrit, matita, sopito (small river, small town, booklet, little father, little mother). Once more Jespersen follows Esperanto [suf –eto from French -et, ette]. This suffix is not very common in French, whereas the suffix –ito, -ita (> U. –it) is frequently used in Spanish. Moreover -et creates problems with words like cigarette, ticket, packet, etc…)

-ON (augmentative suffix in both languages) in N. pluvono, ridono = heavy rain, big laugh ; –on is used in other words in Uropi : manon, hason, ʒinona (big man, big house, big woman).

ADVERBS

Adverbs of time in Novial are formed with the suffix –tem which corresponds to the Uropi suffix –vos (time/s ≠ tem = the time). For example N. nultem, omnitem = U. nevos, talvos (never, always, lit. notimes, alltimes)

Adverbs of place are formed with the suffix –lok which corresponds to the Uropi suffix –ia. For example N. nulilok, omnilok, altrilok = U. nekia, talia, altia (nowhere, everywhere, somewhere else).

But above all, because Novial adjectives end in –i like many Uropi adjectives, Novial has many adverbs ending in –im as in Latin and Uropi (-im & –em).
For example partim, privatim, spesialim, naturim (partly, privately, specially, of course) are both N and U ; N altrim, solim, totim, samim, noktim = U altem, solem, talim, somim, nocim (otherwise, only, quite, equally, by night / nightly). N. anglim and fransim as well as Uropi Englim and Francim mean in English, in French.
N. talim, qualim ? = U sim, kim ? (from Lat sic, & Rum cum ?) = thus, how ?

    There are many other similarities in Novial and Uropi ; let us only mention adjectives ending in –i (for ex. N mikri = U miki = little), feminine nouns ending in –a which are much more international than Esperanto –a (for ad.) & -ino (for fem.). Novial, like Uropi or English, has no declensions except a kind of genitive. As in Uropi, German, Dutch and Scandinavian languages, the passive is formed by using the Novial auxiliary bli (= U vido = to get, to become).

    Compared to Esperanto, Novial represents a real progress (as did Alfandari’s Neo, but for other reasons). However it follows the main trend of that period towards more and more « naturalism », i-e its vocabulary is almost entirely of Latin origin ; perhaps not a 100% Latin as in Interlingua, but much more as in Esperanto. Therefore, Novial is not a really international language. What a pity that Jespersen didn’t select more international words ! How much I wish I could have met him ! But unfortunately he died in 1943.

    The modern trend in IALs (or conlangs) has been to use Indo-European roots. This is a good idea because they are international, that is common to many European and Indo-Iranian languages, and Uropi was born from those very roots. Yet the new interlanguage-makers want to be faithful to the original forms of those roots, which may have existed and, in any case, date back to 5000 or 6000 years ago. It is practically impossible for any European – apart from a handful of specialists – to recognize these roots, understand their meaning and find the modern European words derived from them. These original roots are written with a lot of H’s and W’s which give them a barbarian look for most Europeans : for example no European will understand pHtêr*, sâwel*, snighws*, gwîwô*, gwous*, but Neolatin and Germanic speakers will understand pater, NeoL. and Scandinavians will understand sol, Slavs will understand ʒivo and gov.

    When you try to modernize and simplify those roots, you can hear all those « Indo-Europeanists » shout in unison « Betrayal ! Betrayal ! ». This faithfulness to the purity of the original roots makes me think of the « purity of the Aryan race » proclaimed by the Nazis. Personally I rather think that mixed races might be the solution for mankind. Why not accept that these roots have travelled through history, altering their forms and their meanings till they gave birth to modern European terms ? It seems to me that, in the field of interlanguages, we have gone from an extreme to the other. Why not find a compromise, a balance between history (prehistory ?) and geography, between the original I-E roots anf their present offspring, between ancient and modern languages, between Sanskrit and English, old Slavonic and Spanish, ancient Greek and Swedish ?

    This is what Uropi has tried to do.

★ ★ ★

pawidor1

★ ★ ★

    Bien sûr, j’avais déjà entendu parler du Novial; j’avais même lu le petit article qui lui est consacré dans le « Précis d’Interlinguistique » de M. Monnerot Dumaine, mais pour être franc, je ne connaissais pas un traître mot de Novial. Pendant mes études de langue à l’université, j’avais aussi, bien sûr, entendu parler du grand linguiste danois Otto Jespersen, mais c’est à peu près tout.

    Il y a quelques jours, en voyageant sur Internet, je suis tombé sur un site Novial et j’ai pu lire l’article « an International Language » (une langue internationale) publié par Otto Jespersen en 1928 : j’ai été très impressionné.

    Dans son avant-propos « Need for an Interlanguage » (la nécessité d’une interlangue), Jespersen écrit :
    « Un Américain peut voyager de Boston à San Francisco sans entendre parler plus d’une langue. Mais s’il devait parcourir la même distance de notre côté de l’Atlantique, ce serait une toute autre histoire. Supposons qu’il parte d’Oslo et voyage vers le sud, sud-est : il entendra peut-être parler norvégien, suédois, danois, allemand, tchécoslovaque, hongrois, roumain, bulgare, turc, grec et ensuite, en Egypte, arabe et un peu d’anglais – douze langues différentes, dont la plupart lui seront totalement inintelligibles. et pourtant il n’aura pas entendu la moitié des langues parlées en Europe. La malédiction de Babel est toujours là… »

    C’est encore le cas au 21e siècle, et pourtant Jespersen qui est mort en 1943, n’a pas connu l’Union Européenne avec ses 27 pays-membres, avec au moins 23 langues différentes et tous ses problèmes de traduction. Plus loin, il écrit :

    « Dans les congrès scientifiques, comme dit le Professeur Pfaundler : « très peu de personnes peuvent prendre part aux discussions et beaucoup sont satisfaites lorsqu’elles peuvent comprendre les exposés qui sont souvent faits de façon très rapide. Beaucoup de critiques importantes ne sont pas formulées parce que l’on n’a pas les capacités pour discuter de ces questions dans une langue étrangère et que l’on ne veut pas essuyer une rebuffade, pas tellement en raison de son ignorance par rapport au thème abordé, mais plutôt par un manque d’aisance dans l’expression. Tout membre d’un congrès a pu remarquer que, chaque fois que la langue utilisée dans les interventions change, un grand nombre de participants quittent la salle en faisant plus ou moins de bruit, pour éviter d’être obligés d’écouter un exposé qu’ils ne comprennent pas »… »

       En outre, ce qui m’a beaucoup impressionné, c’est le grand nombre de similitudes entre le Novial et l’Uropi ; similitudes que l’on peut observer à trois niveaux : les préfixes, les suffixes et les adverbes.

PRÉFIXES
De nombreux préfixes sont identiques ou très semblables en Novial et en Uropi.
Par exemples les préfixes :
 
DIS- (indiquant la séparation ou la dispersion) dans les verbes N. disdona, dissenda, distrancha = U. disdavo, dissendo, diskoto (distribuer, envoyer dans des directions differentes, découper (viande); (ce préfixe existait déjà en Esperanto, par ex. disdoni, mais nous pouvons nous demander pourquoi Jespersen a gardé les termes Esperanto doni et tranchi qui ne sont pas très internationaux car on ne les retrouve qu’en Français (donner, trancher)

MIS- (més-, mal, incorrectement) en N mispronuntia, miskomprena, misdukte, miskalkula = U. misusvoko, misincepo, misduto, misreko (mal prononcer, mal comprendre, égarer, mal calculer)…

MAL- (correspond à l’adjectif mal(i) (= U mali) = mauvais et l’adverbe N & U malim (mal) : en N. malfamosi = U. malfamos = mal famé.

TRA- (= U. TRA) = à travers : en N. tralekte = U. traliso (parcourir (un livre)

RI- = Uropi RE- indiquant la répétition: en N. ridona, riskripte = U. redavo, reskrivo (redonner, réécrire).

RETRO- = U. RU- (en arrière, retour) en N. retrotira, retrodukte = U. rutrajo, ruduto (retirer, reconduire).

MI- = Uropi MIJ (= demi) : N mihore, milume, miklosat = U. mij hor, mijlùc, mijkluzen (demi-heure, demi-jour/ semi-obscurité, à demi-fermé)

    En revanche, il est difficile de comprendre pourquoi Jespersen a gardé le préfixe Esperanto BO- pour la belle-famille, qui vient du Français beau, belle qui l’utilise également dans ce sens. Pour nous autres Français, c’est un peu ridicule car un beau-père n’est pas un père beau et une belle-mère ne l’est pas toujours non plus.

SUFFIXES

-ET- = U. –IT (diminutif) : N. riverete, urbete, librete, patreto, matreta, dormieta = U. rivit, polit, bibit, patrit, matita, sopito (petite rivière, petite ville, livret, petit père, petite mère, dormir un peu). Une fois de plus Jespersen suit l’Esperanto [suf –eto ; du Français -et, ette]. Ce suffixe n’est pas fréquent en Français, alors que le suffixe –ito, -ita (> U. –it) est très utilisé en espagnol. De plus -et crée des problèmes avec des mots comme cigarette, serviette, billet, etc…)

-ON (augmentatif dans les deux langues) en N. pluvono, ridono = forte pluie, grand rire; –on est utilisé dans d’autre mots en Uropi: manon, hason, ʒinona (homme grand et fort, grande maison, femme grande et forte).

ADVERBES

Les adverbes de temps en Novial se forment avec le suffixe –tem qui correspond au suffixe Uropi –vos (= fois ≠ tem = temps). Par exemple N. nultem, omnitem = U. nevos, talvos (jamais, toujours)

Les adverbes de lieu se forment avec le suffixe –lok qui correspond au suffixe Uropi –ia. Par exemple N. nulilok, omnilok, altrilok = U. nekia, talia, altia (nulle-part, partout, ailleurs).

Mais ce sont les adverbes en –im qui présentent les similitudes les plus remarquables.
Du fait que les adjectifs Novial se terminent en –i comme beaucoup d’adjectifs Uropi, le Novial a beaucoup d’adverbes terminés en –im comme en Latin et en Uropi (-im & –em).
Par exemple partim, privatim, spesialim, naturim (en partie, en privé, spécialement, bien-sûr) sont à la fois N et U ; N altrim, solim, totim, samim, noktim = U altem, solem, talim, somim, nocim (autrement, seulement, tout à fait, pareillement, de nuit). N. anglim and fransim comme en Uropi Englim et Francim signifient en anglais, en Français.
N. talim, qualim ? = U sim, kim ? (du Lat sic, & Roum cum ?) = ainsi, comment ?

        Il y a beaucoup d’autres similitudes entre le Novial et l’Uropi; notons au passage les adjectifs terminés en –i (par ex. N mikri = U miki = petit), les noms féminins terminés en –a qui sont beaucoup plus internationaux que l’Esperanto –a (pour les ad.) & -ino (pour le fem.). Le Novial, comme l’Uropi ou l’anglais, n’a pas de déclinaisons à l’exception d’une sorte de génitif. Comme en Uropi, allemand, néerlandais et dans les langues scandinaves, le passif se forme à l’aide de l’auxiliaire devenir (N bli = U vido) et non être.

     Comparé à l’Espéranto, le Novial représente un véritable progrès (comme le Neo d’Alfandari, mais pour d’autres raisons). Cependant il suit la mode de l’époque vers toujours plus de « naturalisme », ce qui signifie que son vocabulaire est presque exclusivement d’origine latine; sans doute pas à 100%, comme c’est le cas pour l’Interlingua, mais beaucoup plus qu’en Esperanto. Le Novial n’est donc pas une langue véritablement internationale. Quel dommage que Jespersen n’ait pas choisi des termes plus internationaux ! Comme j’aurais aimé le rencontrer ! Hélas il est mort en 1943.

     La tendance actuelle en matière de Langue Auxilaire Internationale (en anglais I.A.L ou conlang) est d’utiliser les racines indo-européennes. C’est une bonne idée dans la mesure où ces racines sont déjà internationales, communes à beaucoup de langues européennes et indo-iraniennes ; d’ailleurs ce sont elles qui ont donné naissance à l’Uropi. Cependant les nouveaux créateurs de L.A.I veulent rester fidèles à la forme originelle de ces racines qui existaient, peut-être, il y a 5000 ou 6000 ans. Il est pratiquement impossible pour un Européen – à l’exception de quelques spécialistes – de reconnaître ces racines, de comprendre leur sens, et de trouver les mots européens modernes qui en dérivent. Ces racines originelles s’écrivent avec de nombreux H et W, ce qui leur donne un aspect barbare pour beaucoup d’Européens : par exemple, aucun d’entre eux ne comprendra pHtêr*, sâwel*, snighws*, gwîwô*, gwous*, mais un locuteur néolatin ou germanique comprendra pater, un locuteur néolatin ou scandinave comprendra sol, un Slave comprendra ʒivo et gov.

        Quand on essaie de moderniser et de simplifier ces racines, on entend tous ces « indo-européanistes » crier en chœur « Trahison ! Trahison ! ». Cette fidélité à la pureté des racines indo-européennes me fait, hélas, penser à la « pureté de la race aryenne » tristement célèbre. Pour ma part, je verrais plutôt l’avenir de l’humanité dans le mélange des « races ». Pourquoi ne pas accepter le fait que ces racines ont voyagé à travers l’histoire, ont évolué dans leur forme et dans leur sens pour aboutir aux termes européens modernes ? Il me semble que dans le domaine interlinguistique, on est passé d’un extrême à l’autre. Pourquoi ne pas trouver un compromis, un équilibre entre l’histoire (la préhistoire ?) et la géographie, entre les racines i-e originelles et leurs descendants actuels, entre les langues anciennes et les langues modernes, entre le sanscrit et l’anglais, le vieux slavon et l’espagnol, le grec ancien et le suédois ?

          C’est ce que l’Uropi a essayé de faire.

 

Publicité
Publicité
Commentaires
A
After read blog topic's related post now I feel my research is almost completed. happy to see that.Thanks to share this brilliant matter.
Répondre
R
After read blog topic's related post now I feel my research is almost completed. happy to see that.Thanks to share this brilliant matter.
Répondre
C
[Mä]Queï Novial'e tal'e qale Er çeugermane Esperantou, sem Studeg locùe jarae de "Sun et Norda Vento" quie Escevèi ostesie en ulquantaes oedaes Novialu diciu tanni disim3aes atùer ablomodu av oi Jespersen.Qys Er bel ei bone Novial?[OcG]Qu'aimi jo Novial ( parli d'eth au Jespersen, pas l'adjectiu de çò nòste(=edza en Eo))tau com quin sia frair d'Eo, mès qu'estudei le famos passatge deu "Solelh e Vent deu Nòrd" que vesei en mes d'ua versions d'ua dicha (lenga)Novial diferentas de la deu Jespersen: quin es le beth e bon Novial?
Répondre
U
First of all, I’d like to say I’m no anti-esperanto fanatic, and I appreciate Esperanto ideals and the good qualities of the language. I have recently made a 3000 word Uropi-Esperanto dictionary and I must say there are many common points between both languages.<br /> But of course, you will understand that I cannot agree with you on several points.<br /> « The words have to come from somewhere… » yes indeed, but not from anywhere. Following your line of thought, all words could just as well be purely artificial like edzo, kiu, ^ciu, tiel, kiel… Purely artificial languages were made long before Esperanto 120 years ago (you’re right), but they were com-plete failures. One of the essential characteristics of International Auxiliary Languages is that they should first and foremost be international. The only term related to knabo/Knabe I could find is « knave » ; there is also a Dutch word whose meaning I have forgotten.<br /> Being myself a language teacher I know very well that « most people have no interest in etymology », although it helps you quite a lot when you learn a new language. With English and German (and French to a lesser extent) and some knowledge in etymology, you can understand 75 % of a Dutch text. Yesterday I bought 2 little Danish-French and Norwegian-French phrase-books, and though I never learned these languages, I was amazed at the number of things I could understand (without reading the French translation) thanks to the aforementioned languages and etymology. In any case, etymolo-gy should be one of the main concerns – if not of anyone learning languages – at least of those who create a language. <br /> Choosing words at random can lead to artificial languages like ADLI where words are picked up by chance from English, French, Italian, Spanish and German.<br /> For ex. « My auto ne walk piu » : of course it means « my car no longer works » and not « no longer walks »<br /> or « Le vent begin a send we la rain »<br /> Not only is it stupid, but it is also misleading because we might also have « Der wind commence to send noi some lluvia » or « Mein car ne marche more ».<br /> Though I acknowledge Zamenhof’s efforts in terms of grammar, I am appalled at his amateurism in the way he sometimes selected his vocabulary. Uropi has been created from the roots which are com-mon to languages of the Indo-European family, and also from the numerous words which can be found in many (or at least several) languages, not to mention those which have already become inter-national like hotel, taxi, telephone, etc…<br /> Today more than half the world population speaks an Indo-European language (including India, Africa where official languages are often English, French or Portuguese; in addition, in Arabic-speaking countries many people speak either French or English).<br /> Let me give you a simple example : your example.<br /> Mi man^gas pomon<br /> • man^gi comes from the French manger which is only related to Italian mangiare<br /> • pomo from the French pomme which can only be found in French, though the word exists in Ita-lian, but with a different meaning, for ex. in the coumpound pomodoro = tomato.<br /> In Uropi we say :<br /> I jed un apel<br /> • i comes from Indo-European « egô* » = I > Eng I, Du ik, Ger ich, It io, Sp yo, Rus [ya] + other Slavic languages ja, Da jeg, Sw jag, etc… that is at least 11 languages<br /> • jedo Lat edere, Da æde, Sw ätta, Du eten, Eng eat, Ger essen + Slavic root « jed- » (Rus [yedim] = we eat, Serb jedem = I eat, Cz jedlík = eater, …) : at least 10 languages<br /> • un Fr, It, Sp, Rum, Bret, Wel un, Eng a/n, Ger ein, Du een, Sw, Da, Nor en, mod.Gr ena(s) = at least 13 languages<br /> • apel Du appel, Eng apple, Ger Apfel, da æble, Sw äppla, No eple, Lit obuo-lys, Latv abols, Rus [yabloko], Cz jablko, Pol jabl-ko, Serb jabuka, Wel afal, Bret aval, etc… : at least 14 languages.<br /> <br /> This is a very international sentence, which is essential. When you learn a foreign language, the easiest thing is what is familiar to you. I have studied Italian and German at the same time, putting in the same amount of work and time for both languages, and I can assure you that I speak Italian much bet-ter than German simply because the former is much closer to French than the latter. However, my attempts at learning Vietnamese and Thai have come to nothing because not a single word rang a bell for me. On the other hand, Indonesian seemed to me much easier, because more familiar. 19% of Uro-pi words are related to Indonesian through Sanskrit, Hindi, Dutch, English and Portuguese.<br /> I also disagree with you on the accusative : being a learner of German and modern Greek, I am per-fectly aware of the difficulty of using the accusative and of saying τον λογαριαθμο instead of ο λογαριαθμος when asking for the bill. Of course Esperanto-speakers will say they find the accusative easy, simply because they have learned it and they like the language. Someone who likes Russian (and I agree it is a beautiful language) will say it is simple and easy, which it is obviously NOT.<br /> You should ask non-Esperantists whether they find the accusative easy and whether they like it. I have always been struck by the fact that what I found very easy, obvious and logical in English could repre-sent insuperable difficulties for French students.<br /> In French we have a saying : « simple comme bonjour » ; this doesn’t apply to Esperanto where you have to say « Bonan tagon » with 2 accusatives ; even German is simpler with « Guten Tag » where you have only one. The Uropi « Bun dia » is just as simple as the Portuguese « Bom día »<br /> But let’s take other examples :<br /> Mi vidas belajn rozojn = 6 grammatical forms (1 present, 2 accusatives, 2 plurals, 1 adjective)<br /> I viz bel roze or I see beautiful roses : there is only one grammatical form in Uropi and in English, that is the e or s of the plural.<br /> Fraûlino vi havas belajn bluajn okulojn kaj belegajn blondajn harojn<br /> Damita vu av bel blu oje id magibèl blondi kevile<br /> Young lady you have beautiful blue eyes and gorgeous blond hair.<br /> In Esperanto you have 12 grammatical forms (that is if you don’t count the 4 adjective endings) whereas in Uropi you have 2 (2 plurals in –e) and in English only one (plural in –s). Not to mention the lack of harmony caused by this accumulation of ajn & ojn.<br /> In a comparison of the translations of a text by Ernest Renan in Esperanto, Neo and Uropi (which you can find on the Uropi website: uropi.free.fr) I found that Esperanto used 98 grammatical endings as against 95 in the original French text and only 63 in Uropi.<br /> The more grammatical forms there are, the more difficult a language is. The best evidence for this is that of adjectives and participles in French and in English. In French, adjectives and past parti-ciples agree with the noun, which means each of them has 4 forms, for example ouvert, ouverts, ou-verte, ouvertes, whereas they are invariable in Uropi and in English : opren / open. This is why French speakers keep making mistakes in their own language on the agreement of adjectives and past participles (which also exists in esperanto incidentally). <br /> <br /> You can also build many compounds in Uropi and form many words with prefixes and suffixes as in Esperanto.<br /> For ex : somidean which corresponds to the popular Esperanto term samideano.<br /> Thank you for Kimra ; I will follow your suggestion. As for climbing a mountain, this is not the image I would choose. Whatever the difficulty I have nothing to lose. I would rather use another image : the exploration of unknown worlds. Creating Uropi supposes a permanent comparison of more than 27 languages, from Welsh to Persian, from Catalan to Lithuanian, from Swedish to Armenian, etc…, I keep exploring new territories, discovering new wonders, new treasures*; the riches lie in the explora-tion and creation themselves, not necessarily in a hypothetical outcome.<br /> Ki mi frami salute<br /> <br /> JL.<br /> * For example, isn’t it fantastic that a proverb like « Strike while the iron is hot » should exist using practically the same words in English, French, German, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Greek, Russian, Li-thuanian and perhaps in other languages too ? This is also the case for many other proverbs.
Répondre
U
Bore da ! Bun dia ! Salute a Kimra! *<br /> <br /> Thank you for your contribution.<br /> If I’m not mistaken, the meaning of your message ist that the Esperanto movement (associations) is going to get more money. This is no surprise to me : the Esperanto movement has always been relatively wealthy. Dr Zamenhof himself had a personal fortune which he invested into Esperanto. Close to where I live in central France, Esperantists own a small castle (much bigger than a manor), where they organize conferences and training sessions.<br /> <br /> What amazes me is that, after 220 years of existence and given all those financial means, Esperanto has not managed to be accepted and used as THE international auxiliary language (I.A.L) by the international community. Why have so many linguists tried – why are they still trying – to reform it or create new IALs ? (Ido, Esperantido, Esperantuisho, Esperido, Interglossa, Neo, Interlingua, Occidental, Novial, Latino sine flexione… and so on…)<br /> <br /> The answer to this question is obvious : because Esperanto is not satisfactory.<br /> Esperanto is far from being the simplest and most international auxlang it claims to be.<br /> <br /> First its vocabulary is over 70% Latin (which is all very well for French, Italian, Spanish and even English speakers, but what about the others ?) with a few Germanic and Slavic terms picked up at random (for ex. knabo from German Knabe, no longer used in modern German, or ^selko from Polish szelki = braces) and many purely artificial terms such as kiu, tiu, ^ciu, kio, tio, ^cio, kie, tie ^cie, etc…<br /> <br /> Many Europeans (not to mention Asians or Africans) will wonder why they should bother to learn how to use an accusative which has practically disappeared in most European languages (apart from Slavic languages, but including German and modern Greek) and has never existed elsewhere. Another example of Esperanto grammatical difficulty is the number of participles : 3 « active » participles : -anta, -inta, -onta and 3 « passive » participles : -ata, -ita, -ota ; these can be used in the accusative and the plural, which gives 12 different forms for each, that is 24 different forms for both, compared to 2 participles in English (worked & working).<br /> <br /> To conclude, I’ll quote Otto Jespersen, the famous Danish linguist, creator of Novial : « The best international language is that which offers the greatest simplicity in every respect to the greatest number. »<br /> <br /> Ki mi frami salute<br /> <br /> J.L.<br /> <br /> PS<br /> I long hesitated between Kimra & Kumra (u = [oo]) for the word Wales in Uropi, wondering which one could be closer to the Welsh word Cymru. What do you think ?
Répondre
Publicité